The Sustainable Leading Edge: A Discussion with Martin Lok

Kate Cacciatore

Hello and welcome to The Sustainable Leading Edge. I’m Kate Cacciatore, head of Sustainability at FigBytes, the sustainability data management platform that connects data with purpose. Before I introduce you to my guest today, here’s some context about the purpose of this podcast series and some of the questions and themes it sets out to explore as we face major global challenges such as the effects of climate change, biodiversity loss and social inequalities.

There is growing awareness today across all stakeholder groups that business with its global clout has to do more than incrementally improve its sustainability performance. We need wholesale systems change in order to be able to shift to a net positive regenerative, inclusive economy and society. This will require unprecedented collaborative efforts of the private and public sectors of civil society and citizens to find new business and consumption models, innovative products and services, as well as groundbreaking policies, financing mechanisms and partnerships.

This podcast invites business, sustainability, civil society and public sector leaders to share their experience on the leading edge of the sustainability transition. What motivates them to act and innovate in this space? What is their vision and how are they working towards it? And what kind of mindset shift do they think will be necessary to bring about the changes we want to see in the world today?

For this fourth episode of the podcast, it’s my great pleasure to welcome Martin Lok, executive director of the Capitals Coalition, a multi-stakeholder initiative involving over 400 organizations across business, finance, government, science, accounting and standards, civil society and multi-stakeholder groups. The ambition of the capitals coalition is that by 2030, the majority of businesses, financial institutions and governments will include the value of natural capital, social capital and human capital in their decision making, and that this will deliver a fairer, just and more sustainable world.

Well-known for its role in spearheading the creation of the Natural Capital Protocol and Social and Human capital protocol, the Capitals Coalition was one of the key contributors to the COP15 process and the creation of the global biodiversity framework. It sees its role as a convener and connector of different parts of the system to accelerate momentum, leverage success, connect powerful and engaged communities and identify the areas, projects and partnerships where we can collaboratively drive transformation change.

Prior to his roles in the Capitals Coalition, Martin has held numerous government roles in the Netherlands, notably in the Dutch Ministry of Agriculture, Nature and Food Quality and the Ministry of Economic Affairs, where he sought to move the needle on policy issues relating to the integration of sustainable city into the way we govern and do business. Martin welcome, and thank you for being my guest on the podcast and exploring together with me the leading edge of the sustainability transition.

Thank you very much, Kate. And it’s very nice from you to have me here in this wonderful podcast series. I’m happy to be here and also introduce the capitalist coalition that I work for, as well as the work that we did in the context of COP15 and how we are trying to connect together business, finance and government. Three key players that are all necessary to really change the course of the direction of the world into a direction that is nature positive, climate neutral, as well as an inclusive and also social equitable.

Thank you so much. I mean, that’s a great place to start. Why don’t we talk a little bit about the Capitals Coalition so that you can share a little bit more about the organization, what it’s doing and your role in that in that whole process as well?

Yes, the Capitals Coalition is an international collaboration. So we bring together over 400 organizations from business, from finance, from governments, but also standard setters, accountancy, bodies, NGOs, academia, so a whole range of different organizations around a joint ambition that you already mentioned. We want to change the way how decisions are made by including the value of nature and people and to support organizations.

How to do that. We have developed the natural capital protocol, the social and human capital protocol. We are now starting the process to integrate those two protocols into an integrated capitals protocol that alongside these protocols, we’ve also published numerous guidance documents, toolkits, and we are convening the community to come together to discuss how can you do this in the best, meaningful way, and how can you change the conversations within your organization.

I mean, it’s not changing an organization if only the sustainability department is doing this. So we have to reach out to the CFO, to the designers of products and services, to the managers of facilities to really make companies integrate all these insights on the basis of valuing their impacts and dependencies on nature and people into all of the decisions the companies are taking.

So that’s what we are doing as a Capitals Coalition. Not only do we bring together the different key stakeholders within a company, but also we bring together companies with their financial partners, with governments, with the NGOs, the civil society around them. Because that’s that’s key to really understand what is the value of a company or of the activities of a company and to society.

And also what is the value of their impacts and dependencies to the society.

I remember you telling me and reading about the work of the Capitals Coalition as a convener. You’ve mentioned the tools and the frameworks which sort of help bring people together with a common understanding. And I remember from our conversations also that there is also this consideration about involving not just the pioneers among the different communities that you mentioned, but also being able to reach a wider audience and involve them in some of these discussions because very often the most ambitious and sort of progressive companies or governments might be involved.

All of those stakeholders that you mentioned. But I believe you’re also seeking to reach out to that wider group of organizations like the small and medium sized enterprises and companies and stakeholders who might not have the same perspective as some of the most progressive companies. Is that right?

That’s that’s more than right. And of course, we are very happy in the collaboration with many front runners that really have changed the way how companies see see value. So, for example, one of our partners from a long time back already is the French luxury business occurring, who holds many of the luxury brands from from French industry, and they have been spearheading they have really be front running in changing how you can integrate the value of nature.

And nowadays also people into your decision making. They started with Puma, who used to be part of their organization that published the first environmental bill, a profit and loss account, which was a great a great example. But it’s good to work with those front runners, and that helps us to understand how can we do this better? But at the same time, we all know that if we want to achieve our overall gain sorry, our overall objective, which is to include the value of nature and people into the decision of the majority of business, finance and and government.

If we want to achieve that, we need people to follow the leaders and it is in a way, it’s more difficult to make people follow leaders than sometimes to create leaders. And especially if we want to, to get to the numbers that we need for our own ambition. This is what we need need to do. So we that’s why we convene meetings where we bring together people be invited.

We want to be as open as possible as the Capitals Coalition. So there’s no we don’t ask a financial contribution to people who are part of our our network. That’s not that’s not the first kind of question. And discussion that we have for them. We open them. Please join us in our conversations, in our meetings. Share your experiences, start learning from what others are doing emulated.

And here are the tools that you can use to to also start your own journey and your own learning in that respect. So I think that is a key thing. And of course, also for SMEs and for if you compare and aa SMEs with corporate or corporate usually has a sustainability department or the sustainability responsibility is set in one of the other apartment departments, but that’s several people dealing with this.

They have a budget to do research and a lot of the SMEs, let alone the smaller companies, they don’t have that opportunity. So they need different tools and approaches and and that’s also one of the things that we are looking at. How can we support that? How come what is the experience of other SMEs ? How can we share those experiences?

For example, through sharing some of the case studies that they have done? And in this way we are working to build up the community that has applied the different capitals approaches that we are working with.

Wonderful. Yeah. So it’s a source of inspiration, opening one’s own perspectives to hear the perspectives of others, getting access to tools and resources and supports and generating that momentum of collaboration. It’s a wonderful mix.

Yeah, I mean, this is always the best way to learn things, I think, is to practice yourself. But also doing it in company with others is kind of creating hiring the level of fun in your own learning experience and that that is important because if it’s no fun, then then you won’t progress that fast.

Yeah, I’m glad you said that actually, because I often think about the importance we can get very serious in this whole space about sustainability and feel like the weight of the world is on our shoulders, and rightly so in some ways. But you’re absolutely right. Unless we feel that fun and that connection with other people to create something that we believe in, then we’re missing something, I think.

So let’s talk a little bit about your background in your career, because it’s a very interesting one. So you spent several decades, I believe, working in government and you’ve had some very interesting experiences there. And you then made the decision to move to civil society. So it would be really interesting to hear about that journey and why you made that decision.

And you know what your experience has been for moving from a policy dimension of sustainability in business and government to this multi-stakeholder space.

Yet thank you for this question. And it is interesting, of course, also for me, although at the same time I used to work for government for over 30 years and now I’m working in a different organization. But to me in a certain way it is very comparable while at the same time, yes, it is different, but I’m still.

Martin I’m still working on topics that I really like, focusing on sustainability. I’ve worked on sustainability throughout the whole career in in government as well. And so I shift a little bit to perspective, but the topics I’m working on are still quite, quite similar. So that that kind of raises, of course, the question, But why did you move?

Because of still the same thing. What what made the difference? And when I worked in government, I started my career working on environment strategy. So I was a member of two project teams creating strategic environmental policy programs in the Netherlands. So this is back in the nineties. So that’s already quite, quite a while ago that I moved to, to the nature department in the Ministry of Agriculture, Nature and Food Quality, working on strategic nature, policy, biodiversity policy.

And I gradually increased my focus on the link between key sectors of society, business, finance being of course a key there and together with policymakers and with civil society. And I always wondered how do you what is needed to get business move in a direction that is more sustainable? And I’m throughout my professional career interested in this question.

What makes that move? And I’m firmly believe is what makes people move is if there’s an interest to them and if they believe in it themselves. So, yes, if you’re working for a government, you can regulate, you can say you must do this, but it goes a lot faster if people believe that it’s in their best interest. So that’s I always focus on this, this link between business and policy.

And what I also but I noticed over the 30 years was that when I started my policy career, it was the end of a kind of a period where governments really were ahead of the game. They were leading the pack on sustainability, providing the direction, especially in the Netherlands. We had marvelous environment ministers that really created an environmental policy that kind of shifted the direction in society.

But gradually the leadership from government kind of faded away. I don’t know. Maybe that’s not right, but to use red, but but it became less and less. And what I saw in the around 2010, 2015 was more and more that it were leaders from the private sector that were kind of ahead of the game by pointing at the right direction.

And so at that time, I started to think, well, maybe I should move over because they are running a little bit faster. And I think that’s the the interesting place to be. And I started to become involved in natural capital, being a funder from the Dutch government perspective. So I started to fund projects and I really got excited about that.

And then at a certain moment in time I decided, well, let’s hope over and join the other pack and then continue on the same topic in the same field, but work on this not from the policy side but from the private sector side. And let’s see how we can make the system as a whole go a little bit faster then.

Fascinating. And it seems to me also I think in some of the conversations we’ve had before that over the years, one of the things is a very subtle dimension that could perhaps go unnoticed. But you’ve you’ve spoken about this. I guess it’s a mindset of insular thinking that is quite typical, right? We’re all in whatever role we happen to be, whatever sector we happen to be, and we see things very much from that perspective.

And it’s quite hard to imagine that somebody is somebody else’s perspective could be completely different. And so it would be lovely to hear more about your experience of that reflection. On the importance of becoming aware of one’s own perspectives and then being able to shift and see things from multiple perspectives in order to find solutions.

Let me give, give an example on this, because everyone, whether it’s about policy, business and finance or it’s about biodiversity organizations versus the private sector, everyone is living in its own bubble and it is, of course, I mean, many people like you, me, we try to be open and go and think also outside of our bubble. But I think it’s good that I mean that it is difficult to leave behind your own rucksack of ideas and thoughts and so a very good example where someone entered a room and a conversation and just made it very clear my rucksack is different than yours was a session.

I work still for the Netherlands at that time, and we organized a meeting between biodiversity organizations together with a sustainability lead from one of the major banks in the Netherlands. And the first thing what he said when he took the stage was I’m from a bank, I think money. So we are going to discuss nature in terms of money, whether you like it or not.

If you don’t like it, go away. Be my be my guest. But if you want to get my attention, we have to talk money. And that to me, that was a very clear a signal that he was giving that you need to be aware of the language and the concepts that other people are using if you want to collaborate.

And that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t change. So it was in a certain way, of course, a kind of a black and white a conversation starter that he that he used. Of course you need to be open and also change your own concepts, but especially if you want to get the attention of someone else and you really need him or her.

So in a company, if you want to get the attention from the financial part of the company on sustainability, you have to translate sustainability into the concepts that they understand and and use. So that’s why we started to use back in the days, natural capital as a kind of a concept to make it more relevant to to them.

And that’s also why working in the ministry, my last 5 to 10 years, I said a lot of times the most important biodiversity policy is not nature policy, but it’s financial policy, it’s agricultural policy. So we have to shift away from the regular concepts that are kind of guiding the silos.

Fascinating. So really at the capacity to immerse ourselves in the reality, the perceived reality of those other stakeholders, and somehow create a common space, a common language. And I guess it’s also critical in those situations to create trust and ensure that the other party or parties know that they’re being heard and that their perspective is being listened to.

Yeah, and it’s I would argue it’s even more I mean, it’s the best way to create trust is to give it away. So if you took talk with a if you’re a biodiversity organization, you’re talking about business, you want business to take into account impacts and dependencies on nature, then if you start with the conversation that you said, well, you’re doing all these bad things for nature and I don’t think you’re you have the right mindset to change, then you will have a very different conversation.

Then, for example, if you say, Well, I see you’re a company, you want to provide goods and services that are good for people. And I mean, it’s not your aim to destroy nature, but you want to create a better world. I believe that you want to improve yourself. What are your ideas about what is the best way forward to to improve the your relationship to nature?

So so the trust is that yes, they will do the good and the good thing. And then I mean, that doesn’t mean that you should shut your eyes for the the bad things that are also happening and you should make them clear and put them on the table and have a fair conversation about it. But if you’re not first, give trust.

Yes, I think you want to do the right thing. Then it’s very difficult to also get the other to trust you. And so that’s why usually I always start with giving the trust to others and then I’m together work on what do we need to further develop and strengthen the trust through that.

It’s a fundamental point, absolutely. And it’s a nice bridge to talking about the COP15 process, because obviously that was a a huge milestone at the end of last year in December in Montreal. And the agreement that was signed and the global biodiversity framework that was created, it would be wonderful to hear you’ve been deeply involved in this for a long time and it would be wonderful to hear your perspective on how you experienced it and what you see is the most significant aspects of it.

Yeah, I mean, to start, I would say, because indeed it is a long process. And so for those who are listening that are not aware of the the CBD process, the Convention on Biological Diversity, this is the UN process to, to guide the world, to to live in harmony with nature. And there have been an agreement with many targets that governments had agreed upon in 2010, and the majority of those targets were not met.

Only one was was met and the my and I think many people kind of came to the conclusion what very important reason why many of these targets are not met is that they have been set by the conservation community in the world consisting of NGOs, but also of course, policymakers focusing on on nature and with academic underpinning. All the good things that you need to set targets.

Were there, but there was there wasn’t the ownership that is needed from many of many other key stakeholders, including business. And so they did that. One of the key elements and aggressions in the CBD always has been How can you and I use the word mainstreaming, how can you mainstream biodiversity into what others are doing? How can you integrate it and how can you make biodiversity a business issue?

That’s if I focus it on business, it’s kind of what the CBD had had been looking for already a long time and then the decision was made, Well, we need a new framework, we need new targets for 2020 and for several reasons, mainly COVID. It became 2022 before we reached reaching an agreement. But so that’s a broader context of this discussion.

And then the Capitals Coalition, we are supporting businesses, working with business to create the frameworks to include net the value of nature into their decision making. You host all those conversations, but we also see the necessity to change the rules of the game, to change policies and incentives. But we are not the kind of organization that is lobbying themselves.

We are not a very strong advocacy organization just by ourselves. But what we decided to do with a couple of other partners, including WWF and later also WBCD, the World Economic Forum. Many of us was that we wanted to convene the business community to create one business voice to advocate for ambitious outcomes of this negotiation process of the UN for new targets on nature.

A formal named post 2020 global biodiversity framework on nature. So that was the package and we wanted to create one business force. So in 2019 we started to work on that and we had a model and an example where it had worked very well that this was that we mean. Business is a business coalition that’s bringing together business that advocated for ambitious climate change policies in Paris.

So we work with them. We learned from them, what should we do? And so we brought this together. We started with a couple of organizations. We also brought in, of course, a lot of the companies and asked them, Are you interested to be part of this? We want to be your your voice. And that started to grow. We are now over 70, 75 organizations that are supporting business.

So these are business organizations like Capitals Coalition, World Economic Forum, WBCD and others or NGOs, ICN, WWF, who have a really strong collaboration with big business that constitutes business for nature, together with all the companies that work for us. And in the running up to Montreal, there were three campaigns that we that we created alongside the practical work on policy recommendations so that we could feed into all the different elements of the post 2020 global biodiversity framework, which is just a document with 21 targets and a lot of text and well, you want to create change there.

And but so three campaigns. The first one was that we had a call to action. Over 1000 companies saying, yes, nature is part of my business, Nature is a business issue. And we called governments to be ambitious in this new framework. And so this was the first thing we did. And then the second campaign that we launched was around the incentives.

So we there was research showing that 1.8 trillion USD in the world is spent by governments on incentives, subsidies, tax tax measures, other kinds of investments by government that are not promoting a nature positive outcome but are working in the other way. So they are bad for nature and so we run a campaign on that. And the third campaign was all around the need to make it mandatory too, for companies and financial organizations to assess and disclose the impacts and appendices from donors are doing it.

But it’s it’s not becoming the new normal for many, for all companies. And in order to change that, we need requirements. We need action from government. So that was the third campaign we were running. And in parallel to that, we also collaborated with the Conservation community around the need to have a unifying target, a unifying goal that that we could use for society to rally behind, to to collaborate together on taking the action that is needed for for biodiversity.

And so we compared with climate change and climate change, the world is relatively simple. You have the 1.5 degree aim that we all want, let that temperature not rise too much. And what is needed for that is no more CO2 emissions. We all know that for nature the picture is much more difficult. So that’s why we we advocated for having a nature positive and a goal and a more nature in 2030 then we have in 2020.

So that’s more a simple, simple storyline. And the conservation community, together with business organizations, agreed this. This needs to be the unifying goal for and for nature. So that was yet yet another campaign and at the end a skeptical coalition. We also developed as many of the businesses amazed that two weeks, one week before the deadline of agreeing on a new biodiversity agreement, there were still over 1800 brackets in the deck.

So at the brackets, it’s just it’s brackets around the text that one of the one on its 89 countries says, I don’t agree with that, let’s not put it in the text. And there were 1800 of these brackets in the text and the process was going so slow. So we run a campaign to remove the brackets, get rid of the brackets, break the brackets.

This is really what we needed. And so in all these campaigns, help to build up the momentum. And when we arrived in in Montreal, we arrived with over 700 representatives from business of finance that came along with Business for Nature, Capitals Coalition and the others too. And to discuss with the negotiators is to provide them with the confidence. Yes, we want we need an ambitious outcome.

And this factor alone so over 700 organization in total, there were over 1000 private sector representatives. We brought seven hundred. So the bigger portion of that, but not not all, of course. And there were around 14,000 negotiators in total. So and never before so many people from the private sector came to a nature negotiation. And it really it shifted the debate, it shifted the atmosphere.

It was so much going on outside the official negotiation rooms that was visible to the partners. And we were able to say, for example, in one of the key negotiations on Target 15, which is on the the need, the requirements to assess impacts and dependencies, and that negotiation went and governments were still thinking, well, are we going to do this?

Are we not going to do this? What is necessary? What does the business community need that goal to the the experts in the room? So it was away from Business for Nature., the executive director, she clearly stated, we are here with over 700 people and what we need is an ambitious target and we need it to become mandatory and please have the courage to do so.

And that shifted this element of the discussion. But it also I think it is the perfect illustration that bringing a mass of people to a negotiation, just the mass shows. Yes, it’s important to us and that’s what we created with our partners and Business for Nature in the run up to COP15. It makes me enthusiastic again and again when I think it over, because it’s also, I think, what the CBD and the conservation community was looking for

mainstreaming. They wanted to integrate biodiversity into the decisions of of other sectors. And if you want to do that, the first thing you need to do is you to get it into their heart. And and I think 700 people traveling to Montreal and shows that this is but over the years we have been able to do.

I, I really want to thank you for sharing that because obviously when people who are not at Montreal look in the papers and read the articles, it’s very hard to know, you know, what actually happened. And you’ve shared with us the spirit there and I think is incredibly encouraging that very often we feel discouraged because the mountain seems so tall and so hard to climb and things slip and it’s hard to imagine things changing the way we know they need to.

And here’s an example of just by being part of something, just by showing up, just by having the courage to speak and say what one believes in and work to represent the views of the organizations we all work for. It’s hugely powerful and it does. There are these moments of quantum quantum leaps, right where we suddenly the game changes and the narrative shifts.

Yeah, certainly that that’s true. And I think one of the tricks, maybe not a good word here, but but a very important element in and the effectiveness of the business community towards Montreal I think is the choice we made. And it is a choice that as the business community, we will only advocate for things that are creating higher ambitions.

So we never went into a discussion where we asked governments, Oh please, you’re going too fast, lower the ambition a little bit. We never did that. We only ask them to higher the ambition. And a little bit earlier before Montreal, one of the the leaders within the CBD secretariat, after a discussion in the negotiation room, even came to us and thanked us for being.

You’re more ambitious than that. Then countries. This is incredible. And I think this is this has been valued very much by a lot of the negotiators as well as the the UN Secretariat that’s kind of guiding guiding the CBD. And it made the difference because if the lobby from business is as it is, let’s be real, in many cases the lobby of businesses say, oh, go a little bit slower and then it will not have the same impact.

And so but we could say go faster, we think it’s needed and have our support. We will work with you. A lot of businesses in Montreal even said in public discussions, no matter what the outcome of of this negotiation, we will start implementing the key things we are lobbying for here because we believe in it, because it’s necessary and because it’s good for business.

Absolutely. So I think one of the key things that I take away at least is that the level playing field is a big deal because what it means is companies who are ready to sort of channel their energy into achieving goals for nature and becoming nature positive and with all the other sustainability considerations, won’t have to compete with other organizations who aren’t doing that.

Ultimately, that’s what we’re working towards. And I wonder, perhaps you could say a few words about the implications for business, because obviously it’s going to take some time for all of this to pan out. But the the upshot of it is that there will be legislation and companies will need to disclose and to disclose they will have to implement.

And what would you say to companies who are thinking, wow, okay, we really support this, We know this is important. We’ve we’ve it’s going to be a challenge. Where do we start? What do we do? What would be the words of advice and guidance that you and Capitals Coalition are offering to companies? You know, they have to roll up their sleeves now and start looking at that.

Yes. So let me first go if you allow me one step back on the level playing field and why it’s so important not only for companies, but also for society as a whole and including consumers as well as indigenous people. And in the CBD negotiations, the people element was a very important part of the discussion. The Indigenous communities that holds 80% of the biodiversity but do not earn a lot of money out of that and moving money from the north to the south in political kind of dimension around the CBD.

And it’s a little bit going beyond what we are discussing here, of course, but that’s also a key element there and that goes back to the level playing field that we tried to create through this Target 50 that is now agreed on the assessing and disclosing impacts and dependencies. And so if all companies have to do that, that means that all companies disclose information on what they are impacting and on biodiversity.

That means that consumers have information on if they buy a product or they buy a service, they can find the information that is related to the impacts and dependencies of the business that they choose to to buy from or to work with. And this will help them to make a better informed decision if they also want to fully take nature into account as a consumer.

And likewise the indigenous communities that sometimes live in areas where businesses come in and they do their business in a way that is impactful in a negative way for for those Indigenous communities because businesses have to disclose it. They get the information they need if they want to take legal action against businesses, they can do that because the information is there.

So that’s an important element in creating the level playing field and that we also shared with the negotiators that that’s one of the reasons why we are advocating for it, because we think consumers as well as Indigenous people have the right to the best information that needs to be out there on the impacts and the dependencies of what the companies and the financial organizations are doing.

So that’s on the level playing field then. And what kind of businesses, what should you do now and of course the agreement in Montreal was that governments now by 2030, so that’s it’s 2023 now. So seven years they have to require that large and transnational companies and financial organizations as I said disclose their impacts and dependencies.

So you could think, okay, that’s over seven years, let’s do nothing. I don’t think that’s that that’s a smart idea. And also because the frameworks and the tools that you can use are already there and yes, we will further improve them, but the frontrunners already are implementing it and they show that what we have now on the shelves already is good enough to to start implementing it.

And so there are a couple of key building blocks there. I think one is we discussed the natural capital protocol that sets the overall framework, how to measure and value your impacts and dependencies has been tested already by thousands of companies and used. So, that’s already there. Then there’s the science based targets network that is now developing.

Also the guidance for companies how to to set science based targets for nature as a company. And these in March there will be a new publication from this network that provides the guidance for companies to set a target. And I think that’s important because it’s good to assess and understand your own impacts and dependencies. But in order to start moving, you need to find your direction.

And so to have science based targets comparable to the science based targets that are used in the climate sphere for nature is hugely important. So that will be there in March for companies to use. And then on the disclosure bit and of course companies need to understand, but what do I disclose and what are the metrics, what are the tools that I can use that for that?

That’s the Task Force of Nature Related Financial Disclosure that already have put out first draft versions of their guidance. They will come with an updated version in March also, and so those three elements together, the Natural Capital protocol, science based targets, network guidance and the Task Force on Nature related Financial Disclosure Network, they are interconnected. So both SBT and as well as the end of the day, build their guidance on the basis of the natural capital protocol.

And together with all these three key elements, there is a bunch of toolkits, more specific guidance documents for sectors, and those can be used by companies. So what companies should do, if they haven’t done an assessment yet, they start they need to start diving into that and understand, okay, how can I start using these tools and give it a try for the first time?

And at the a very good first step is also to if you’re working in a company and you are the CFO to say to key people within your organization, please take the course that Capitals Coalition provided. It’s online through the Coursera platform on valuing impacts and appendices. This course is freely available. It helps you to understand all of the steps of the natural capital and the social human capital protocol, and it provides testimonials from companies that already have done it that share their experiences on this.

And it’s a perfect way to get introduced to what you need to do if it’s totally new to you or if you are beginning and you want to learn a little bit more.

Exactly. And we’ll include the links to to that. Like course, that people can access that free course, which is a really great resource out there. And I guess, you know, going back a little bit to what we were saying before, so much of what of the intention here is to be able to provide the the information, the data, the understanding, and to be able to take more informed decisions across companies.

And I think that’s worth stressing, isn’t it? Because at the end of the day, it’s not just about ticking the boxes and sort of making the disclosure and doing the right thing. From a compliance perspective, it’s about thinking how is we we as an organization need to take a different perspective that integrates those different capitals which ultimately form part of a single thing.

So there are there’s the climate dimension, there’s the nature dimension, which includes water as well, which is another big theme. And then there are the social aspects and they’re all interrelated. And we can’t understand one without seeing all of them and how they come together. And so I guess it’s not just about doing things, it’s about thinking differently.

Yeah, and it’s about doing differently. Yeah. So, so it is. And I mean, sometimes I have the feeling that the focus is too strongly on disclosure because disclosure is it’s just sharing with the world. Well, this is the situation that’s not changing it, is it. And so what you ultimately need to do is you have to change your decisions.

You have to change the things you’re doing. And so we got last year, we developed together with WBC, BCFD, the ref as TNTFD and of the couple of others, what we now call the ACT D framework, we align the language that we are using and that because we all have four or five steps that are more or less the same, or we had four or five steps and but the language was different so that confused people.

And I thought those are totally different things. Which one do I need to choose? While we always said, well, you have to do all of them, but they are align and so we created this what we call now act the framework, which is there are four major steps to take to become… to support society in a nature positive direction.

You have to assess your impacts, independency. So we’ve talked about that a lot. You have to commit to science based targets to get the direction, and then you have to transform the way you do business. So this t is the key bit that’s what you ultimately have to do. And then on the assessment, on the commitments, on what you are doing to transform, you can decide to disclose that, to share that with the outer world.

So that’s equity, assess, commit, transform, disclose the transform it at the end. It’s the only thing which you’ll make which will create change in in the actual world. And I think that’s very, very important. And that’s also why in the protocol that starts with the question what is the the decision you want to inform? And the protocol doesn’t start with the question, what do you want to disclose to the world?

It starts with the question, what is the decision that you want to inform? Do you want to create new factory and you want to ensure that it takes into account the value of nature and people? And do you want to include nature and people in your overall balance sheet? So what is the decision you want to inform? That’s the key question and that links to what are you going to do?

Yeah, and I think it’s so helpful to have this guidance and advice and it also gives hope to those people working across in many different functions and parts of a company at whatever level that everyone can contribute to this. And it’s obviously important that top management set the tone and create the framework and the conditions for people to contribute.

But it’s a wonderful opportunity to co-create and transform the way we act in organizations. And. Martin, before we finish, we’ve covered a lot of ground today. It would be lovely to hear, you know, what’s your vision? What are you ultimately hoping to see and what what’s motivating you in that direction?

Yes, I mean, it’s one of the things I did in my personal life was also I studied the history of arts and I started to do that because I love a beautiful painting and especially I love beautiful sculpture if I see it and I wanted to know more about it. So I, I did a second university degree on the history of arts alongside my professional career.

And one of the concepts which is key in the Renaissance periods is this concept of the universal man … like Leonardo Vinci or Michelangelo, and what I would like to see ultimately is that we have more of those universal people when it comes to to decision making so that if a person takes a decision, the decision is fully inclusive.

And so that to me is kind of a modern representative of the, you know, the … that’s bringing everything together. And when I say people myself as a consumer, I would love to be in a store and then take a decision that I’m fully aware of, what are the consequences of that decision for for people and a nature.

And now I mean that the way I kind of maneuver in that is by selecting the stores where I go and I mean, I buy something, but you would like to have a little bit more information in a practical way as a consumer. And so this is one of the examples. But but it’s the clues of decision making in every kind of aspect of life and professional organizations, that that is my aspiration for the future.

Kate Cacciatore

Very powerful and very inspiring and and practical as well, because it’s something we can all take a moment, train ourselves to stop and think before we act and just take a mental view of the different perspective, different aspects and impacts of all of our decisions. So thank you so much. Martin, this was a wonderful discussion, and I look forward to following all the work of the Capitals Coalition and how the integrated capitals protocol is going to develop later this year and all the other wonderful programs that you and your colleagues are leading.

Thank you, Kate. It was my pleasure and success with the follow up of this podcast and many others that are hopefully following it.